It's an Inside Job
Are you overwhelmed by managing career and leadership challenges, overthinking decisions, or facing uncertainty? I'm Jason Birkevold Liem, and welcome to It's an Inside Job—the go-to podcast for coaches, leaders, and professionals striving for career and personal growth.
Whether you're caught in cycles of rumination, dealing with uncertainty, or under constant pressure to perform at your best—whether as an individual or a leader—this podcast provides practical skills and solutions to help you regain control, find clarity, and build resilience from within. It's designed to enhance your coaching, communication, and collaboration skills while helping you thrive both personally and professionally.
Every Monday, we bring you long-form discussions with thought leaders on resilience, leadership, psychology, and motivation, offering expert insights and real-life stories. Then, on BiteSize Fridays, you'll get shorter, focused episodes with actionable tips designed to help you tackle the everyday challenges of leadership, stress management, and personal growth. So, if you're ready to build resilience, equanimity, and well-being from the inside out, join me every Monday and Friday.
After all, building resilience is an Inside Job!
It's an Inside Job
Building Resilient Democracies: Insights from a Top Political Science Expert.
Get in touch with us! We’d appreciate your feedback and comments.
Are you interested in how resilience and inclusivity can transform governance and democracy? What if understanding these concepts could help shape a better future for all?
In this episode, my guest, Dr. Manjurul Kabir, is a renowned expert in political science and serves as a Senior Advisor and Global Team Leader for Gender Equality and Disability Inclusion at UN Women. We highlight Dr. Kabir's impressive career and contributions to inclusive governance and human rights. Together, we address the flaws and challenges of democracies and emphasize the need for targeted interventions to ensure equal access to resources and services for all segments of society.
Imagine a world where governance is truly inclusive, resilient, and responsive to the needs of all citizens.
By listening to this episode, you can:
- Understand Global Challenges: Learn about the pressing global challenges and the role of politics, human rights, and democracy in shaping the future.
- Gain Insights on Inclusivity: Discover the importance of intersectionality and inclusion in governance, and how to make democracy more accessible and fair.
- Build Resilience: Understand how resilience in nation-states can be cultivated, using examples such as the COVID-19 pandemic and discussions around vaccine distribution and health governance.
Three Benefits You'll Gain:
- Enhanced Understanding of Democracy: Gain a deeper understanding of the imperfections of democracy and the special efforts needed to make it more inclusive and accessible.
- Insights on Global Trends: Learn about the global trends of backlash against human rights, women's rights, and economic equality, and how they impact democracy.
- Holistic Approach to Governance: Discover the importance of a holistic approach to addressing interconnected crises such as conflict, economic recession, climate change, and pushback on democracy and human rights.
Contact:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mkabir09/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/mkabir2011
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mkabir2030/
Website: https://abulhasnatmonjurulkabir.academia.edu/
Book: Development Aid in Stable Democracies and Fragile States
Bio:
Dr. A.H. Monjurul Kabir is a political scientist and expert in human rights, rule of law, gender, and intersectionality. He currently serves as the Senior Adviser and Global Team Leader for Gender Equality and Disability Inclusion at UN Women HQ in New York. Previously, he held key ro
Eye-Opening Moments are stories of adversity, encounters, and perspectives. They are...
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Introduction to It's an Inside Job podcast
[0:09] Welcome back to It's an Inside Job podcast. I'm your host, Jason Liem.
Now, this podcast is dedicated to helping you to help yourself and others to become more mentally and emotionally resilient, so you can be better at bouncing back from life's inevitable setbacks.
Now, on It's an Inside Job, we decode the science and stories of resilience, into practical advice, skills, and strategies that you can use to impact your life and those around you.
Now, with that said, let's slip into the stream.
[0:37] Music.
Introducing Dr. Manjul Kabir: A Lifetime of Global Engagement
[0:46] Well, welcome back to It's an Inside Job. I'm your host, Jason Liem.
And today we have the honor of delving into the world of politics, human rights, and gender equality and the complex web of global issues with a distinguished guest who has spent a lifetime at the forefront of these crucial matters.
My guest today is Dr. Manjural Kabir. He's a true luminary in the field of political science.
Dr. Kabir's remarkable journey has seen him take on pivotal roles within the United Nations.
[1:15] Where he currently serves as the Senior Advisor and Global Team Leader for Gender Equality and Disability Inclusion at UN Women Headquartered in New York.
Dr. Kabir has worn many hats, serving as the UNDP's Practice Team Leader and Policy Advisor for governance and human rights for Europe and Central Asia.
His career has also taken him to various corners of the world, including Afghanistan, where he served as the UN lead legislative advisor to the Afghan National Assembly, and his contributions to inclusive governance and criminal justice sector reform programs in Bangladesh.
Dr. Kabir is not only a distinguished international diplomat, but he is also a prolific author with numerous books, research articles and op-ed pieces in prestigious journals and newspapers.
[2:01] So today, we have the honor of discussing Dr. Kipir's recent book on development aid in stable democracies and its implications. We'll also explore his deep commitment to intersectionality and inclusion, the pressing global challenges we face, and his visionary perspective of the future amid the backlash of human rights. Our discussion will delve into how these issues are crucial to address, has the play a pivotal role in transforming the inherent fragility of democracies into ones that are more robust and resilient. This transformation is especially vital in today's world, marked by geopolitical complexities, rapid technological advancements, and the ever-looming specter of environmental crisis. So join me now for this enlightening conversation with Dr. Kabir, where we will unravel the intricate threads of politics, human rights, and democracy and explore how they shape our world and its future. So without further or Jew, let's slip into the stream and meet Dr. Mathurl Kabir.
[3:03] Music.
Introducing the guest's background as a political scientist and lawyer
[3:15] Just briefly introducing who you are and what you're about? Sure, very, very quickly. The answer would be I'm a political scientist, as you rightly mentioned, and also human rights and.
[3:29] Legal practitioner. Although I'm not in practice, I'm an international multilateral institution, but that was my beginning. But I still consider myself as a lawyer whenever I am sort of arguing my case in the development framework because rule of law and elements of legal.
[3:51] Processes always help us to stay focused and particularly in politics, whether politics of human rights or gender equality or international cooperation, I often realize that's critically important that we also play by the rule and that helps us to shape whatever, future we would like to. So that would be my response. Yeah and I wanted to bring you on the show because you've recently released the book Development Aid and Stable Democracies in Fragile States and considering the geopolitical tensions, issues such as climate change, machine learning, AI, maybe even some would say the decoupling of globalization. I think it's very important when we talk about resilience, it's also to talk about the resilience of nation-states.
And there's a number of issues I'd like to, you know, address with you and get your expert opinion on. Perhaps you could maybe elaborate on some of the basic tenets of your latest book.
[4:59] Thank you very much. As the title suggests, I actually explored democracy not from the point of view of a conceptual theory only. It's clearly, this is one of the most popular political structure or framework that the world and the countries are using in different form or shape. Of course, there's no one form or shape that matches that this is democracy and this is not, perhaps.
And then within the agreed form or shape in the international community, you, would also see that different level of democratic journey that's happening.
And I always call it it's a journey for most of the nation states, as you are alluding to.
And it's directly linked with the resilience building, the area you have mentioned.
Because after all, we are all talking about inclusive participation, participation of everyone in the matter that affects our life.
I'll just take an example.
[6:05] We're just reeling through COVID-19. But for me, it's not only a health issue, it's a governance issue. And during the whole pandemic, every single country on earth realized the value of resilience, the lack of resilience building effort, whether it is health governance, whether it is people's participation in the vaccine distribution, the decision making, who will get, who won't get, who we get first as a matter of priority, who we won't get at a later stage. You have hard politicians saying that these specific groups of people are more important for our resilience or nation building as opposed to that. And then each country has set their prioritization in terms of vaccine rollout. I'm just using one very common recent past example, but it just reminds you the whole aspect of the challenges that we have in the democracy, the participation or lack of it, the resilience building, the challenges of technical capacity cooperation, challenges of looking at health from a narrow technical point of view rather than a broader.
COVID-19 as a governance and participation issue
[7:18] Service offering for the people who are participating in the governance of their own countries. And we all suddenly woke up from as if we are in slumber and realized that, oh, okay, our health system is not participatory. All right, we haven't invested enough in our health system.
And no, we haven't discussed health priorities in the parliament in past years, or in our legislative bodies, or our local governance was not linked with health system, or we have considered hospital management as purely technical issues, not a public participation or resilience building issues. I'm giving this example, not necessarily it is linked to only health, but this is one powerful example that really shook us to the core given that people were dying.
And that's why we sort of tend to look at those with a renewed vigor.
But this is happening in all other sectors as well. You mentioned about artificial intelligence.
You mentioned about technical innovation.
Like during election campaign, we suddenly realize the power of artificial campaign sometime.
[8:27] As if it is only happening during the election time, because somebody is vindicated or somebody is not or vilified.
Therefore, artificial intelligence needs to be checked or monitored.
But if you look at the whole aspect of the possibility and the threats or the discrimination or the challenges around artificial intelligence as well, that means that more participation and rigorous monitoring is part of the resilience building as well you mentioned about.
And we cannot just delink now because artificial intelligence is also linked with accessibility, which is now one of the key issues. It is important that we have a democratic institution, but are people participating in it?
[9:13] And do they have access to the service offerings? And in fact, going back to your earlier question about my book, I basically looked, at some countries which are known as more in conflict.
I don't want to use always fragility because that is something many countries don't like.
But in terms of the conflict or post-conflict or in transition.
And then I also looked at countries known as not necessarily in conflict, more stable.
And whether as an international community, we made a difference to our support to democratic institution building or supporting or not.
And it's a deeply political process. It's not a technical cooperation issue.
[9:59] Some of us might think that way because there is a training happening for parliamentarian or rule of law officials, but training does not deliver democracy or rule of law.
It's more inclusive participation and the quality of the governance is much bigger than technical capacity development that international community are mostly engaged in in a democracy ballgame.
[10:25] If I may say so. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. In your book, you discuss sort of the fraying edges of democracy and its challenges in various societies.
I was wondering if you could elaborate how these challenges impact the fundamental principles that we we take for granted sometimes fairness and justice. Like every country who has their constitution and constitutional principles of governance and each country has their own uniqueness, separation and challenges.
[10:59] US or North America has one way of political campaign and other countries have different way of political campaign and the electoral process and there is a tendency in the world when I was exploring, among the...
Ruling class among the many sort of participant of the civil society organization processes, they consider sometimes democracy as an electoral cycle process, right?
So you have an election, and election is good, and then there's a government, and there's a regular change of government, or, and that's, but I refuse to call that as democracy because That is probably an essential condition, but not enough.
[11:43] Because the most important thing is between the two elections, what is happening?
Are we really protecting human rights? Are we ensuring equality?
Is our minorities better off? Are we promoting majoritarianism?
Are we really mindful of the accessibility of individuals or people accessing the services that governments are constitutionally bound to provide. And it's not only on government, are we really providing our own contribution to the democracy as a citizen? And I think, these are the things often we take it for granted that, okay, we have institution, we have regular elections, so democracy is functioning. But it requires our contribution, and nothing is taken for granted because in the recent past we have seen the huge backlash against human rights, against women's rights. As we are progressing, many countries in conflict are not only highlighting one or two countries opposed to others. You will see.
[12:49] Women are being routinely disenfranchised, violence against women are on the rise, Violence against LGBTIQ groups are also evident in many parts, unfortunately, for different reasons.
There are also backlash against indigenous population. There are backlash against other groups and segments of the society.
And so, for our inability to think society as a whole.
Is one of the greatest challenges for democracy and resilience building, because it really, forces us to take either from a majoritarian perspective or our own respective groupings, right? Rather than thinking about a holistic population and how we can address them all, from the principle of equality. So you mentioned about principle position and some of the principle framework, how we are being challenged. It's not only human rights, it's also gender, it's also other areas. I think there is one quote that I would like to mention in terms of.
[13:58] Our former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Prince Zayed once said, today, oppression is fashionable again. The security state is back. The fundamental freedoms are in retreat in every region of the world. Shame is also in retreat. Xenophobes and racists are casting off any sense of embarrassment. Now he was mentioning that this is not only happening in one region, it is happening across the region. So it's not it's the one country versus the other, so developing country versus developed countries or north versus south, it's happening proportionately if I may say so, unfortunately, in every part of the world where we are seeing that.
[14:42] Some of the human rights gain that we made are suddenly being questioned. In some part where women's education has become a big question mark, in some part their participation becomes question mark, in some parts people's participation or access to core democracy is question mark.
And this is challenging the resilience agenda because unless you have an expectation and the quality of democracy being distributed across your population, there is no way you can ensure resilience building agenda, whether it is in disaster management or climate change agenda or food distribution as basic as it is. In many countries there are hunger evident and really lurching around not only in some pockets of the country but by and large. And I sometimes we call about equality doesn't mean only...
Gender inequality or other type of inequality. It's also income inequality that is growing, unfortunately.
[15:48] So the distribution and the difference between rich and poor are on the rise.
In the same country, in the same city, and that is the unfortunate part.
In the same city you are living in, you look around, you see the income inequality is on the rise.
Suddenly you saw that more people are without house or without a car or without basic other needs, even access to services like food, water, we consider them as or education are very basic.
Struggling to meet basic needs: Resilience and global governance
[16:19] But suddenly you look around and realize that many people are struggling to ensuring those basic needs. And I think that that's a big challenge for both resilience and global governance agenda.
And the current happening, whether it is a war or a conflict in one part, for example in Europe, or in some part of Asia or Africa, has just deepened the divide and democratic challenges as well.
I mean you've presented so much, I mean there's so many facets to this and I find it fascinating just, you know, delving into geopolitics in this whole area. You know, for me, and forgive me, this is from a layman's perspective, you know, democracies for me is something that needs to be cultivated and like true democracies take sometimes generations to build and sometimes I see we try to, try to, I'll just talk about sort of very generalities, is try to sometimes force democracy on other countries to try to create an even playing field. If we just go back to the fundamentals, democracy from your perspective, doctor, is this something that is cultivated? Is it something, I mean, what is the speed to build a healthy democracy if we're going to look at some of the fundamentals as you talk about, you know, the politics, the country, sorry, the culture in the history.
[17:42] No, I think you certainly can cultivate certain elements of technical finesse, but you cannot cultivate a nation's aspiration in the way you want. It has to be coming from within, right?
[18:03] And I want to just give one example and don't take that example in the context of the a specific country only because it's present in many parts. Take the example of Afghanistan and international communities experiment about Afghanistan's democracy. And if you, in my book, I have explored certain development cooperation within that country, but this is not exclusively to Afghanistan alone. Whenever there is a crisis in a country, in conflict, and then the whole agenda around how can we build a state, can you really build a state, that's my first question.
But that state building is one term that has been used in many places. Now every nation on earth who are aiding Afghanistan at certain point, or were aiding, have a model to suggest for Afghans people, right? For Afghans. And they thought that their parliament is best model, their governance is best model, and they tried to, in good heart, in good intention, they tried to project that to the Afghans. Except what is their own, nobody probably raised as much importance as they should have been because it has to become within. As a result, a lot of resources were spent.
[19:30] But it didn't win the heart and minds of the people. I'm not saying that because of that mistake or one mistake or a second mistake, what is happening unfortunately in Afghanistan.
[19:44] I'm not drawing a causal relationship. All I'm saying is that if you really try to cultivate from an external eye without looking at what is the internal temperature, internal environment, internal culture, and how far an internal culture can really remake, make a break, or build something of their own, your, all your effort.
Would falter at a certain point or would not have the resilience as you expect them to be.
Similar thing people might argue about in countries like Somalia, who also have considerable challenges, Haiti, who is now going through crisis after crisis in terms of building a solid, more sort of stable state.
You have so many countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, in parts of Europe, in some part of Latin America.
Challenges of Criminality and Lack of Stability Worldwide
[20:54] You have challenges of criminality, you have challenges of lack of stability.
So if you start counting, you can see that it's in Asia, It's in Africa, it's in North America, it's in Europe, it's in Latin America, everywhere.
None of the region are free from the challenges that we are seeing.
And everywhere, what is we profoundly learning, one thing is it has to be come from within, no matter how good international model or regional best practice might be suggested to, unless the population itself really take it on and articulate their own needs and own priorities.
And that has to be respected and given priority and supported, maybe.
Best you can do is support. And I sometimes use the Japanese metaphor of Kabuki, where your role is basically at the backstage of a theater.
Or a drama played and you are not necessarily taking the central stage of acting it, right?
So you're sitting back and supporting from the backstage. So I think we should be.
[22:03] More, much more humble and be the kabuki of development or whatever we are doing and trying to support or learn from others as well, rather than saying that this is good or this is bad.
And that is a challenge in the international cooperation as well. I'm not saying that is a challenge of each country's nation-state democracy building process, but within a country you also have elite versus non-elite, you have rich versus poor discourse, and you have and the similar diversity or the challenging division of labor also happening in the international cooperation as well. You know, I think all of these facets that you bring up, this is part of of the human condition. No one has mastered or conquered or, you know, being able to overcome all of these. To some degree, it shows up in every society across the planet.
You know, when you said that for democracies to flourish, it cannot come from the external.
We can create externally a framework and all the doctrine and all the education, everything that you need. But what I hear is you're saying this has to come from an internal point. It has to come from the locals, if I may say that. They have to take ownership and then they can build up on the infrastructure that it can be provided based on whatever history.
[23:24] But just to challenge you then, for me, democracies, it takes a certain belief system, a certain cultural way of thinking from the majority in order to have flourishing democracies.
As fragile as they may be, but to have that, you need to have people who have buy-in and to understand the basic principles as you've spoken to.
But would you say, in some countries, because of certain belief systems or cultural upbringing that democracies cannot, or maybe not cannot, that's I don't want to say it that way, or find it much more difficult to establish healthy democracies because of certain belief systems or cultural upbringings.
I would not call it, you know, the Samuel P Huntington's famous phrase, right, clash of civilization to some extent, but I would say of course cultures are different, civilizations are different, and upbringing and expectations and economic prosperity are different, right, so at different stages. So if I see that there is a governance mechanism across a tribe, if it is the, if the ethnic mosaic of a country based on tribal relationship or.
[24:53] Different groupings that is really forging a nation-state gradually, and every country or or every nation state has their different layer or the process or the timing, you have to give that time.
You have to give that, give them an opportunity to modernize it.
Now, not every country or not everyone has to have a similar model.
Like sometime we, if you look at North America, United States of America, for one example, where democracy is extremely expensive, right?
So if you look at the presidential election campaign, if you look at the Congress electoral process and the way, and it's American continuously, they're saying it all the time that, yes, we are really exploited, sometimes pressurized by donors, by vested interest, by corporate interest.
This is something one, I found it really fascinating that I was listening to different electoral campaign, of different US politicians of different level and different time. and, it remains the same, constantly the same thing that the corporate players are really.
[26:12] Influencing the electoral process in the US. So it's in the 70s, the 80s, in the 90s, even the previous election. So I'm not talking about any specific regime or any specific political party in the US. I'm just giving an example that this remained, interestingly, very, very consistent. So, for many, they might think that this is one of the best form or model of democracy, given that it is taking so much time to perfect it, as they sometimes use it to perfect the union. But think about a small country who would not afford this model of democracy, right?
Or if you think about European countries, a democratic process may not apply or relevant to Latin America or in African countries. So, there is this geographical regional diversity.
[27:09] Based on religion, language, ethnicity, culture, sexual orientation, or other type of orientation.
And now.
[27:23] We have to admit that. For too long, we felt hesitation in admitting that and we thought, okay, there's one common standard for everyone, for mankind. It is not. That is the reason why democracy is so challenging. Sometimes it sounds like a basic, everyone has a right, to their own governance, therefore we need democracy. At the same time, the how is really the most challenging part for all state because it is the how that makes a difference. And it also depends on how much money you have as a state, how much you can really spend for democracy or democratic exercise or participation because it is not free. As sometimes we call it human rights is not free. As much as we talk about human rights, state or organization or regions have to invest money for protecting human rights. So, it doesn't come just because a treaty signed or convention ratified by a member state doesn't guarantee anything unless you really spent or invested on both capacities or institution buildings. Same with democracy. So, therefore, I would respectfully disagree with your one condition where maybe some countries are probably not yet there or not ready.
Rethinking international support and intervention in conflicts
[28:50] Yet. I know that in spirit you are talking about the same thing that I am speaking, but, I have heard this argument that whenever there's an international experiment failed around certain things, then of course the conclusion that we tend to maybe they are not ready. Maybe I just want to reverse the discourse saying maybe we were not ready providing that support, number one.
Number two is yes, there are civil wars, there are challenging circumstances that is emerging from local conflict.
What is our role in it? There might be our role. I'm not going into that discussion because.
[29:28] Not all role is direct role. There are indirect role, there are economic role, there are regional role. Those are the one thing. Then if it is a purely local dispute.
[29:40] Now they need to also resolve that process. If you intervene too soon, unless it is of grave human rights violation issue for which there are clear international understanding. If it is a crime against humanity, genocide is happening, then it's expected expectation is the United Nations or organization of that magnitude will try to rescue or protect and preserve human rights.
That is the clearing call for everyone. And I think there is less disagreement on that magnitude, although there would be always regional disagreement because who wins, who gains more out of a conflict is another powerful ballgame that sometimes unfortunately played out based on who is getting benefit out of a conflict. But beyond that, I would say that we also need to give time for local conflict to resolve using local methodologies rather than.
[30:39] Fast-track our application of international models and best practices and lessons learned.
Because remember one thing that some of the lessons learned and good practices are also coming from a very specific context. So a small country may have something articulated very successfully, and there's no way of making a point that just because a country is small doesn't have something to offer, and big countries can learn from small countries as well, but sometimes the model may not fit.
[31:19] And the US example is one example. There are many countless examples from other countries and other regions where the model of democracy may not be best fitting to other countries as well. So those countries have to also look into their local indigenous model. And sometimes, I don't know whether you have noticed that, there has been a kind of indirect vindication that, OK, your model is kind of more of a lower level model, and it's a model of the past.
[31:48] These are the international consensus coming up, so why don't you follow?
Rather than saying that, okay, why don't you work on your model, and maybe you have a lot of things that you haven't harnessed fully, and there are a lot of interesting opportunities for you to.
So some countries, if you look at this conflict resolution model, some local, even the tribes and the local level, local governance offer interesting formula of solving a crisis or a conflict.
And sometime we need to learn from them and respect them and try to help them so that those models can be sustained and improved over a period of time, rather than replacing them altogether.
Because we also learned from the history that some replacement also cost us dearly, because what we suggested didn't resolve the conflict, rather than added an element or extra layer of conflict.
And many countries, I can go on, give you a name of countries, but we have plenty of examples. It sounds like it's an iterative process.
We just have to address depending upon where it is. But I think what I hear is that at the end of the day, regardless of what country or culture, it has to come from an internal.
[33:06] Music.
The Importance of Participation and Inclusiveness in Democracies
[33:12] In the first part of my conversation with Dr. Kabir, we delved into the fundamental principles that underpin healthy democracies.
Dr. Kabir emphasized that increasing participation is a cornerstone of the vitality of democratic systems.
You know, COVID, the pandemic, served as a wake-up call, revealing significant gaps in how democracies prioritize essential aspects of society.
For instance, in some countries, the pandemic exposed the lack of discussions on health priorities within parliaments and the limited integration of local governments with healthcare systems.
[33:46] Dr. Kabir stressed that quality of democracy hinges on three critical factors, participation, inclusiveness, and governance quality.
[33:55] While the electoral process is undoubtedly a vital part of democracy, what happens between two elections holds even more significance.
It's during this period that the protection of human rights, the assurance of equality, and the access to services for all citizens, including minorities, are crucial considerations.
Dr. Kabir urges citizens to actively contribute to democracy, and not to take the system for granted, as the resilience of any democracy relies heavily on the engagement of its citizenry, its people.
Furthermore, he highlighted the alarming global trends of backlashes against human rights, women's rights, and economic equality.
Often our failure to view society as a whole instead of just our specific groups poses a significant challenge to democracy.
Dr. Kabir emphasized that the importance of addressing societal needs through the lens of equality and inclusiveness.
He also made a powerful point that democracies are not a one-size-fits-all.
They require investment and customization to suit the unique needs and context of individual nations.
He encourages learning from effective practices in various countries and helping them to develop sustainable models, rather than imposing external solutions.
In essence, he emphasized that true democracy must be cultivated from within, with a population, actively desiring and taking ownership of it.
[35:24] You know, this dynamic conversation highlighted the complex interplay of factors that shape the strength and resilience of our democracies in an ever-changing world.
So now let's slip back into the video.
[35:34] Music.
Embracing the Imperfections of Democracy for Inclusive Governance
[35:42] Democracy is often viewed as a flawed system, yet it's better than many alternatives.
How can societies embrace the imperfections of democracy and make it more responsive to the needs of all its citizens? You know, not of course, not just the powerful few, right? But the majority, as you've spoken of. Sure. And one thing you're right, that this is not a, democracy is not a perfect model and we barely have many alternative to democracy. We have, model like autocracy, we have model like past model of communism which is no longer perhaps.
[36:25] Exactly relevant the way it used to be in the past because the world was divided across was to war, right, during Cold War time.
And then we have democracy, which is not perfect.
One thing is very important that we recognize that democracy has its flaws.
[36:48] And it is also important that what are those flaws are. Because if we just talk about democracy's imperfect model, but do not talk about the weakness in great details, then we would not be able to address them.
For example, for this podcast, let me just raise, which I think is extremely important to raise and discuss and deliberate on, is democracy is not automatically inclusive.
Neither it is intersectional. So many groups, typically women, minorities, persons with disabilities, indigenous people, minorities, not only one shape of minority, you have ethnic minority, you have linguistic minority, special social groups.
And then also there are groups who are less wealthy or poorer, systematically disadvantaged from access to political power and political institution.
Recently, I met groups dedicated to the cause of the widows.
And they were telling me that in many countries, as soon as a spouse or a husband died, women disenfranchised from property.
[38:05] Access to property, access to wealth. As a result, they have statistics, thousands and thousands of women just disenfranchised from right to property or right to owning something.
So I'm just giving one example, the series of groups that could be affected.
[38:24] But democracy is not intuitively include them all, unless you make a special report to it.
So therefore, you might build a beautiful parliament building, but that may not be accessible to not only to person with disabilities, but also people who live in rural areas have no way of accessing some of the service or some of the policy discourse that you are offering. So, unless you make a special effort. So, making Parliament and other democratic and rule of law institutions more accessible requires targeted intervention along with clear political will. Whether there will be public hearing, whether there will be outreach by these institutions to the communities, which are hard to reach communities, sometimes we say, and whether there will be other sophisticated systems. Now that we are talking about artificial intelligence, they can be also helpful in terms of generating opinion feedback in the policymaking, in the lawmaking. Therefore, it is extremely important that making democracy inclusive.
Making Democracy Inclusive and Accessible to All
[39:32] Is a clerical call for most countries on earth because by default, these countries are not necessarily building a democracy which is inclusive, unless there have been a special report.
Same thing, democracy are not necessarily intersectional because it is not looking at impacts of poor women living in rural areas with disabilities or coming from indigenous group.
And how that multiple cultural layer or discriminatory factors might enable them to exercise their right to vote in a free and fair manner.
And how, once they applied their right to vote, they can also review some of the results that your parliament or your democratic institution or elected bodies are producing.
[40:29] Even, I mentioned about COVID-19 case, when the vaccines are being rolled out, there are some countries managed to do a bit of public hearing type of discussion.
At that time, of course, any type of public gathering was a challenging situation.
People realized, then how can you really connect?
And many people with disabilities told me for the first time, just because of the COVID-19 situation, states were forced to arrange discussion in a hybrid manner.
And that is the one opportunity of the lifetime they got to participate in a discussion of a Ministry of Health is organizing in a country where a person with disability living in a rural area are connected through online connection.
[41:22] He said to me, and also women with disability mentioned this to me so powerfully, saying that, Manjirul, this is my first time in my adult life I was participating in a national policy reach-out, or roll-out process. I said, what do you mean? He said that nobody bothered about us.
It's always politicians who are dealing, technicians and consultants who are making the policies, and then presented to the prime minister or presidents or governor.
And then the next day we saw the newspaper that policy has been approved passed.
[41:59] Because we wanted it, but we never participated in it. So it took a pandemic to ensure a participation, unfortunately, right? Although that was not an ideal situation. But, if even when I look back, and I was sort of literally froze that here we are, we are.
[42:16] Get so proud of democratic achievement, human rights achievement, and then we're hearing that communities never participate in the offering of democracy in many countries or not in many regions.
So that's why I think it's very important that we recognize democracy is not automatically inclusive, and we make special effort and build special initiatives so that it becomes participatory at every level.
That doesn't mean that you have to do consultation for the sake of consultation, but that really means that there will be a built-in opportunity for people to contribute too, except for once in five or four years to vote.
Because that's something we understood and many countries that's a challenge as well.
[43:02] But beyond right to vote, there are also multiple opportunities that people should get, whether, they can, they should apply their mind and they should give their opinion so that democracy gets improved and it doesn't depend on or held closest to a specific groups or privilege groups.
Sometime we also, I include international community, are also really only listening to the social elites, privileged few, and those who are financially well-off because they can contribute, they can make a big endowment to a good lofty cause. Sometime that is what makes a huge difference in international policymaking as well. And I think time has come to also change that.
That's number one. And secondly, I will just make this point that democracy doesn't mean that your.
[43:58] Income inequality also go away. So one is making democracy inclusive. Secondly, very powerfully, and this is extremely important, because you might have a democracy, but still your income inequality, the difference between rich and poor might increase. So you have a nice election, you have a good democracy by all standards, but you may not have the income equality, right? So, that also means that democracy also doesn't automatically guarantee. It might give.
[44:31] Opportunity for people to participate in the policymaking, but it doesn't always give equal opportunity to everyone to shape their life, future, or make money, or get a job, or decent job. So it's also important that economic equality, income equality, also brought in, as we are working on inclusive democracy. And it's mutually reinforcing. Once you have a much more, income equality and much more inclusion in the policymaking, the democracy looks really prettier than the way we have now.
So I think it's a constant effort, both on the economic end and also on the human rights end.
I think what you said is right on the money from my perspective.
Again, I come from a layman's perspective and I don't have the deep knowledge or experience that you speak of, but what you say really resonates with me, Manjul, because it is a conscious effort.
It's the ability to have discussion.
For me, it's the health of any democracy comes down to the health of the participation in that democracy, and the more individuals and more people you can include that through inclusion, regardless of what spectrum we're speaking of, I think that goes to creating a more resilient democracy, and we become less fragile.
[45:55] Just coming to mind speaking to that, you know, when you're talking about the inclusion and all these different facets and dynamics you speak of, Scandinavia comes to, they're far from perfect, but I see Scandinavia, you know, Iceland and Sweden and Denmark and Finland and Norway as.
[46:14] Coming closer to what you're speaking of, like the theoretical perfection will never reach there, but I see much more active participation. But I think also in there what I see is a population that actually trusts the government. So there's this two-way road and when you trust the government, when you trust that they have your back or they have the best intentions, then this actually encourages even a greater participation. So I see this as not a monologue but a dialogue between those who are the politicians, the government, if we can just use those umbrella terms, and the populace, the citizens. And if you have this healthy conversation, and for me it comes down to constructive conflict, any democracy where we're constantly worried about offending people, I mean just that, and you can't have constructive conflict about ideas without people taking offense or personal, and you can't talk about the challenge or the issue. For me, that is the quintessential fragility or brittleness of any organization, if we want to call it a democracy.
I was wondering, could you speak a little to that?
[47:29] Sure. And I just want to pick up one point you mentioned, and you're so right in terms of the trust in government, that element, and I couldn't agree more that the countries that you alluded to.
Scandinavian and Nordic countries' Role in Inclusion and Democracy
[47:47] Whether it is Scandinavian or Nordic countries and other countries of that part of Europe, they have really perfected role in terms of inclusion as part of democracy, and therefore, we saw a lot of our colleagues in those countries, partners and civil society organization and those who work with the governments, they really make an effort to include gender equality as part part of their foreign policy, you.
You name it, feminist foreign policy, or also inclusion, person with disabilities, and also remember that at one point, if you talk about person with disabilities, there were used to be a medical approach to disability, right? So people would think that there would be some medicine and then people will heal, as opposed to social inclusion model, social justice model.
And I think the region that you mentioned or referred to have their great strength in building social inclusion and social justice model, which is so important for democracy and democratic health. Because without social justice and social inclusion, all these groups that I have referred to, it's impossible for them to connect with the government.
And as a result, trust in government suffers. I think you are so right, in many countries.
[49:17] People are losing trust in government and as a result, they're looking for alternatives and options. And sometime you might have elected government, yet you realize that people not necessarily trust the government and as a result, they are trying to go for alternative routes and it creates conflict, right? You have a government who is in power and then people are looking for alternatives and without a proper election they cannot have another government whom they can trust, perhaps, or sometimes they lost the trust in the political class and then they try alternative and it creates conflict. It resulted into different type of nation conflict and different groups conflict, right? So that's one thing.
Secondly, the question you have just alluded to towards the end in terms of the, how these whole narratives around intersecting crisis.
Gender Impacts of Intersecting Crises
[50:18] Of conflict, economic recession, climate change, and the pushback on democracy and human rights, how do you navigate this?
And one thing I just want to mention that these intersecting crisis of conflict are not necessarily gender neutral as well.
And we saw that whenever there is impacts of climate, food insecurity. It also typically women suffer more than men and then there are other groups as well who suffer because they may not be the social elite, they may not live in cities, they might be living in hard to reach areas and the rural areas which are not necessarily government priority or political priority or those areas may not make a difference in the power dynamics that the country have in terms of who is in power and how this power will be threatened if that particular area is served or not served. And sometimes many areas are not necessarily creating any threat. And as a result, I'm saying in a very ironic way that as if threat is a good word, but unless you matter in the calculation, you are sometimes forgotten, unfortunately.
And sometimes people are better off when politicians forget them off, but that's also very cynical utterance coming from many voters who says, okay, I would rather be forgotten and.
[51:43] Live in peace in my own small little town, which is okay as long as it guarantees you social safety net, unfortunately. And then they are not necessarily bothered about big things that are happening in countries. These are reality. These are not necessarily ideal situation, but really In terms of the conflict, I just want to say that inequalities between and within states are growing.
And as a result of that, we have this tendency or the propensity to conflicts or resolving something through conflicts is on the rise, unfortunately.
You have human rights under attack. Human rights and gender are constantly under attack in many countries. in many countries.
And therefore, if you want to solve a crisis of that magnitude, where the intersectional elements are connected.
[52:41] It is very important that you look at from a holistic point of view. I will give an example.
If you want to have better policing in an area, how do you do that? If you only listen to.
[53:01] Law enforcement agencies, you will then realize that, okay, if we improve the salary, if we increase the number of police, if you increase, if you give them better ammunition, as if the rule of law challenges will be solved. Because that's what, when you do the stakeholder consultation, sometime that is what you heard, that we are outnumbered, we don't have adequate ammunition, we don't have logistics, we don't have support, we don't have salary, we don't have quality of life, so as a result we are unable to cope up with law and error challenges. But if you also hear other stakeholders. How do you really make people more respectful to rule of law? How do you make them also their own unique contribution to the rule of law challenges? And how do you really build the bridges trust between community and the police? The whole model of community police.
[53:57] We know the citizen security model in Latin America, we know the community police model in many parts of the world. Those came because there was a lack of trust in the government or lack of trust in the law enforcement. I'm just giving one example from a security sector, which you can find out other examples as well. Now, the world we live in, if you want to have a better rule of law in any particular area, you need to look at whether people are accessing law enforcement agencies, whether they're coming up to tell their stories to them, whether they're being addressed in a prompt fashion, whether there is a mutual trust, police.
[54:40] Trust in police or law enforcement agencies or trust in people that they will come up, with the fact and the truth when police need them. Whether there will be adequate witness or whether there's protection of witness as well, right? So these whole things doesn't depend on, just increase of the budget for policing or increase of the budget for community participation.
You need increase on all front, but you also need mutual trust and regular conversation and discussion among them, the different actors.
So the climate change, food insecurity, human rights backlash are something that you need to factor in in your regular operational support or programming for the member states.
Intersectional Approach for Effective Programming
[55:29] So those days are over where you have a social welfare scheme happening in isolation.
It has to be linked with other type of program as well. So all I'm saying that intersectional approach is, I would not call is a response, but I would call that it's a better informed process where you are trying to solve one problem, but then you are looking at other typology of problem and other typology of solution and you are trying to connect them.
So if you improve technology in a country where agriculture.
[56:08] Maybe the farmers will be benefited because the technology is giving them internet and also the SMS so that they can really compare the prices of the agricultural product.
You also then create their access to banking, their investment opportunity, the saving schemes, and their access to Medicare and other type of support.
So you provide one type of support, but it has to be built in other type of support so that the complex navigation happen.
If you want to address climate change, of course you have to then factor in education, you have to factor in how environment are being protected.
You have to also factor in how industrialization might affect or might not affect and how technology and AI can be of help.
So I know I might sound a little bit complex given that I keep referring to multiple factors, but that is where we are now, where the days for one problem and one solution is over. It's always a multiple problem and the multiple solution link to each other.
[57:16] I mean, that's what we, that is the world we are living in. And I think recent, the COVID-19 pandemic also reinforced that, that a solution has to be multipronged. So you have seen that hospitals are overflooded, then you connect the community spaces. And how do you then community spaces and vaccine and the health and the right to food are connected in one program?
[57:46] I'd like to just to shift the conversation just a part of what I like to do on this show is like to just a challenge from a devil's advocate point of view.
You know, when we want to create more vibrant democracies, we need to include and have inclusion as part of that. And so we need to ramp up.
[58:04] But you know, if we look at an individual level, the human being, a human being likes certainty.
That's how the brain is wired. It does not like uncertainty.
And so there is sometimes a certain level or speed of acclimatization where people can take on new ideas, take time to sit with it, reflect on it, and absorb it, and it becomes part of the everyday.
But in a lot of policies sometimes, and again, I think this comes back to the trust of governments.
If a government is very dogmatic about a certain issue and they rush it through, and what happens is the populace, from my perspective, again, the layman's perspective, does not have time to acclimatize it. What I see, instead of people absorbing it, the pendulum swings back so far to the other side that they become resistant, right? Almost rabid against what is being pushed. Let's take, for example, there's culture A, which is the dominant culture of this country, and also in culture B, there's an influx of culture B into culture A. Instead of a sort of a slow drip drip to acclimatize, it gets rushed in really fast and almost becomes a clash of cultures. And then this kind of culture A looks at the government says, what are you doing? Because it's too much too fast. I was wondering what is your perspective of the rate of implementing certain policies such as that.
Complexities of Migration and Integration Challenges
[59:33] And this becomes much more, I would say, complex or common when the whole issues of migration are taking place, right? Economic migration, humanitarian migration, as you were.
[59:51] Somewhat indirectly alleviating it without mentioning it, but I was thinking about the The similar challenges I heard from many colleagues in Europe and partners in Europe who mentioned when the whole challenges of Middle East crisis in Syria, in war, and other part, not only in Syria, in other part also, and it suddenly created a lot of humanitarian influx of refugees.
And issues of refugees is different.
Then you have economic migration happening, then you have unplanned migration, and then you have conflict.
Suddenly generated huge amount of sometime migration, sometime in the form of refugee crisis.
We are seeing that now in Ukraine. So it's in Syria in the past, in other part of the countries, whether it is in Iraq, in Pakistan, in many part of the world. So that's one thing.
But it's constantly challenging our, when you say the culture A, if it is a culture A of the more sort of stable.
[1:01:06] Predominantly majority population that is in practice for decades, right?
For centuries.
And then you have influx of people coming from different cultures.
And if they are part of culture B or culture C or culture D, and how do you really integrate or assimilate?
And I think.
If you look at the history, if it is any guide, so when you look at the old time when colonization has happening and then some kind of cultural integration happening, you have a gradual process to it, right? So it's happening in Asia, it's happening in Africa, when colonies are being set up and then the gradual process, the education and other things are sort of their interaction.
There are a lot of controversies. There are a lot of challenges. There are a lot of.
[1:02:02] Contestation to different facts. I'm not going into those controversies. But I think the challenge we have now, things are happening faster than ever. You have social media, which also adding, and you have artificial intelligence, and you mentioned about your innovative approaches.
You have social media. The reason I'm saying I'm, of course, a big fan of social media, because it's really empowering people. I would just tell you, Afron mentioned that I was talking to a woman with disabilities who had their mental trauma but also she was physically unable to walk and she was telling me, Manjul, for me internet is window to the world.
[1:02:51] So I look at the world through internet because I cannot get out, I cannot see many things that that you see, and I felt very privileged, but I also understand the power of technology, when creating some sort of level of equality.
It is not real equality, but some sort of equality where he or she is also participating in or connected to internet and other entertainment and news and information and participation, right?
So those things. So.
Immediate Backlash and Misinformation on Social Media
[1:03:23] I think what you have said that because social media is so upfront and so fast, so it creates immediate backlash as well. Pictures are shared.
[1:03:38] Information, sometimes misleading information, sometimes rumours, sometimes in your window are shared in real time and people are expressing outrage based on something probably which is not verified, and then it creates already damage is done. You have seen that in many conflict, in many society, where after thorough investigation, people realize that they acted in a rash manner based on information which are not factually correct. And that's a challenge, would not go away because if you want to regulate internet too much, then it will raise the issue of freedom of expression, right? And that might also hurt the information that you need.
So, in terms of the integration or assimilation or different type of model in terms of between two, one dominant culture and other competing culture that are coming in, it is, you know, almost like we live in an internet world where when you are in a social media site, you also get a sense of it. What is happening on the ground is almost to me.
[1:04:49] It's also happening on the social media sites as well. Now on the ground, you have real challenges because social media, it's sometime you can ignore, right? You can get it out from it, although it's now controlling a manual life. In the real world, when you have the physical, because of a conflict or because of lack of resilient response, you have these challenging circumstances between population and then migrant workers or refugees or different economic migration that is taking place.
How do you really integrate? And I found sometime that if you, I'm not saying democracy is a solution because it might also create a lot of backlash, but as much as your democracy is nuanced, more inclusive and understanding of the challenges that different type of population is facing.
[1:05:50] The best chance is your response to resilience building would factor in these newer challenges.
And once this, I think culture B, as you mentioned, or I have added culture C, D, E, because there might be multiple entry as well, a different type of influence factor. Once they say that, okay, we are being hard, our problems or the challenges were not solved, but there is a proposal to address them in gradual manner. And some of the pressing demands, whether it is a law and order demand or economic prosperity demand, or showing respect to my own dignity and what their value, then that might calm down the situation a bit more than it is happening now and creates an integration that you would expect. After all, you cannot expect that the world would remain an, ideal isolated place where there won't be any economic migration, there won't be any humanitarian migrant refugee crisis. Those things would happen because we don't live in an ideal world.
Gradual Improvement in Response to Global Challenges
[1:07:04] If that we have agreed to, then our response would be of course gradually informed by our lessons that we are learning from this crisis as well. So I think it would be.
[1:07:16] It is, I think it would be usual to expect that our response should improve over time.
If it doesn't improve, then that will be most frustrating because then we are not learning.
[1:07:28] And I think my hope is if you look at the climate change movement globally, or if you look at how the world is managing refugee crisis, the fact that the world managed before multiple refugee crisis or force or humanitarian migration crisis. As a result, when the Ukraine war happened.
[1:07:51] Or is happening now, countries are better prepared at least in terms of providing shelter, immediate medical need, which didn't happen in many past crises when people were dying out of basic needs. You might say that Europe may be more affluent than other regions, but it's not only about affluence, it's also about preparedness. And I think the countries who are much better prepared than before, where despite affluence, we failed because that was not in our awareness.
So in terms of addressing humanitarian crisis, in terms of addressing climate change crisis, which is a work in progress, of course, and in terms of addressing other type of sudden influx or sudden crisis, I think worlds are getting better and better and better despite all our discomfort, despite all our complaints. Let's not forget what we have achieved as well. Otherwise, it will be a very, very disappointing situation where you don't see the light of the day.
[1:08:59] You know I think basically what you've said it's a quintessential definition of resilience and equanimity. I'm very respectful of your time doctor. I was wondering one last question for you, and it's not an easy one so take a shot at it. How do you vision the future you know are we future ready given considering sort of the backlash of human rights that you've spoken of earlier in this episode?
Sure. Now I know that this is probably the most difficult question and my vision for future is one that is inclusive, accessible, and intersectional. I do believe that it is challenging but it's not impossible.
In the interest of the time, I'll just unpack it a little bit for the listeners as well. So, if I really aspire to be an inclusive future, I would probably want a much more gender equal world, right? And that's happening. It's not that that things have not progressed.
If you look at the Beijing summit on gender in 1995.
Advancements in Equality Legislation and Policy Priorities
[1:10:17] Today we are in 2023, numerous countries have passed equality legislation, whether it is gender equality, whether it is all types of equality, and which is forcing states, governments, local governments to make sure that any program they do are benefiting men and women and other genders as well now.
[1:10:46] It's increasingly LGBTIQ has become also a policy priority, in addition to only men and women, the traditional way of looking at it in the past.
[1:10:57] So that's a progress, solid progress we should share. But I'm not saying that there are no challenges.
There are a lot of challenges, of course, on the way.
But we also need, so that means it just tells me that an inclusive future is possible.
It's not impossible just because of the sheer progress that we have achieved and the number of laws that more than 100 countries passed on this and of course different level of implementation.
Then I spoke about accessible world. In the 60s or 70s it would have been a luxury to talk about accessibility. How do you ride a bus if you are a person with disabilities? How do you attend school, if you have autism, or learning disability, or how do you really get a job, you are sort of counted forever that, okay, you will not be producing anything, or you will not be productive in the society. But now things have changed.
So buildings are becoming accessible. Human minds are also becoming much more inclusive and accessible. It's a work in progress, and there are a lot of things that need to be done, but I think we are on the right trajectory to making this world much more accessible.
[1:12:18] And accessibility is also, I think, the power of technology, particularly the artificial intelligence, is making a huge difference in the lives of the people who are unable otherwise to fulfill their dreams. And then third is making my vision is the future should be intersectional.
So I mentioned about inclusive future, then I mentioned about accessible future, and the last point, not the least, is intersectional future, where I would say that.
Embracing Complexity and Intersectionality in Policy Making
[1:12:50] We look at the world not as a black and white, but we also look at this and within black, is it there are some elements of grey, there are also white, and there are other colors, and there are rainbow and other combination of it, right? So it's not only one versus the other. And how can we make sure that rural urban versus rural, economic deprivation and also gender, ability, disability, sex, and other elements are factored in the policies. And when you have multiple challenges, for example, you might be from a rural area and you are a woman and you have a child who is with disability, or you may have coming from ethnic minority groups who has some social taboo and you are victim of that social stigma as well. Now, how do you address.
[1:13:50] The challenges of that women who are facing this multiple barriers of challenges. Sometimes when we hear them, we thought, oh, Manjul is making a really very rare case. It's not rare. You look at the world you are walking in, you look right, left, you will see someone who have multiple challenges. Yet our response system, resilience building system, gear towards one type of discrimination, either men versus women or other genders, or ability versus disability.
[1:14:23] Or indigenous population versus mainstream population, as we call it sometime in media wrongly. So my vision for future is we'll address all of them sometime in a connected manner, not together, but in interconnected manner.
So if there's a climate change, whether women are more vulnerable or person with disabilities are more vulnerable or LGBTIQ population may be exposed to much more police harassment in certain countries or culture, how do you address them in a more...
So my last part of the vision is the world would be much more intersectional where we'll address the world, not as a black and white, but more connected way.
[1:15:10] And this is probably easier said than done because the backlash against human rights, gender and other part are growing, But I think it's possible.
When you talk about whether inclusion or inclusive accessible intersectional.
[1:15:26] It's not only about budget that really should determine, it's the political will, is the mental decision to make a difference.
I think we are in a position or in a trajectory, that decision probably easier than in the past because of our education, because of the technological innovation, and because of a diversity of funding or nature of funding is so diverse now that we are not dependent on one type of funding source. There are multiple sources of funding in the society that is coming into play. So my hope for future is would be much more inclusive, accessible, and intersectional. I think that's such a very salient point to end this brilliant conversation.
Manjul, I want to thank you very much. It's been a very an eye-opener for me to share and to hear from your expertise and deep knowledge on this multifaceted aspect of building more resilient democracies. You know, just talking to you leaves me with a positive outlook that we're developing in the right way. Yes, there's a lot of obstacles in the way, but you know, somehow we will find our way around it as a global community. So thank you very much for your time, sir. Thank you very much, deeply appreciated. I really enjoyed the conversation and also learned from you.
Thank you so much, Jason. Keep up the good work and your podcasts are very popular and.
[1:16:53] To keep up the good work and all the very best. Thank you, doctor. That means a lot coming from you.
[1:16:58] Music.
Flaws in Democracies: Lack of Inclusivity and Intersectionality
[1:17:07] In closing, my conversation with Dr. Kabir has shed light on the intricate nature of democracies, systems that, while pivotal, are far from perfect.
As Dr. Kabir aptly articulated, democracies are not inherently inclusive or intersectional.
They often fall short in addressing the diverse needs of ethnic, linguistic, minorities, and special social groups.
Some individuals, particularly vulnerable segments of society, are denied access to essential resources and services.
For instance, in certain regions, widowed women may find themselves marginalized, deprived of property, rights, and access to critical services, rendering them almost non-entities in the eyes of society.
To forge more resilient democracies, we must confront these inherent flaws head-on.
This endeavor calls for targeted interventions that acknowledge the unique challenges faced by various segments of society.
Crucially, it demands unwavering political will to ensure that every facet of democracy is accessible to all.
Inclusiveness, equality, and intersectional focus must be at the heart of our efforts.
[1:18:15] Dr. Kabir eloquently reminds us that our world is exceedingly complex, riddled with interconnected challenges and multiple and multifaceted solutions.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach. Instead, our journey towards stronger democracy necessitates a nuanced understanding of the intricate web of problems and the diverse range of solutions required.
In essence, our conversation today has underscored that the road to resilient democracies is neither straightforward nor uniform.
It requires a collective commitment to inclusivity, equality, and intersectionality, acknowledging the unique struggles faced by different communities.
By embracing targeted interventions and harnessing political will, we can work towards a future where democracy truly serves as a beacon of justice and the opportunity for all.
[1:19:07] So I just want to thank you personally Dr. Kabir for your time and your energy and your insights and sharing your knowledge and experience with us today.
You know democracies are inherently fragile, but that does not mean we cannot build them into resilient, robust political systems.
We have inherited our democracies, if you live in a healthy social democracy, from our, parents, from our grandparents, and we are the wardens of that democracy, and that requires our active participation.
Well anyways, folks, thank you for joining me for another week, and if you can take the time, please subscribe, please suggest, please recommend this to two people you know, to, friends, to family, to colleagues.
You'd be doing me a huge solid.
And until next week, till the next time we continue this conversation.
